National Service

[Perdita]

Brooke Kinsella, the sister of the murdered 16-year old has called for National Service to be re-introduced as a way to stop the knife crimes. I would be interested in your views whether you agree with this or not. Is National Service the answer? Can the Armed Forces keep those gangs off the street and make them respect other lives? :hmm:

[StarsOfCCTV]

I don't know about national service. I think it would be a bad idea if everyone was forced to do it. How long would national service last?

I saw an advert for a programme:
Documentary series presented by David Blunkett MP in which ten youths spend ten days in prison. Each of the teenagers has convictions ranging from theft to assault, but none of them have ever served time behind bars. In a unique experiment, they will find out what life in prison is truly like for the first time - but will it be enough to change their ways? In the opening instalment, the youths arrive at Scarborough Prison and face a tough time settling in to their new routine. (Channel 5 7th July, 9-10 pm)

I think that ^ would be a better idea.

[StarsOfCCTV]

double posted sorry

[di marco]

my grandad has always said that they should bring back national service! i dont know, cos for the kids who do behave themselves and dont go round with gangs and carrying knives, i dont think they should have to do it, it would be unfair on them

[Jojo]

Stop blimming health visitors telling parents they aren't allowed to shout/tell off their children would be a start.

Get parents installing discipline into their children again, learning respect for others etc - that would be a huge help in all of this, because there are so few people that seem to be teaching their children values these days and half of it comes from health visitors etc telling you, how you must ask your child not to do something, instead of telling them, as its negative and will taint the child when they are older!!! :angry:

Something needs to be done, but like Di M said, National Service would affect all children (well, males) and its not just with boys that this is happening, plus, those that have got values instilled into them, would also end up having to sign up - tarring everyone with the same brush.

[DaVeyWaVey]

National Service = no thanks. Personally, I wouldn't learn anything.. and I don't go around carrying weapons so I wouldn't want to be forced into something like that thank you very much!

I do like Kasple's idea though and think that would be a better solution.

[Perdita]

The other sie of the coin is that the Armed Forces are currently being staffed with volunteers, they want to do the job. Forcing people into something they don't really want to do might actually endanger those serving.

[Hollie-x]

My Mum has the same views. She said it would help so much with what's going on at the minute and in my opinion it would bring respect back into the community.

I was walking down the street the other day - just me and my cousin who is 6 months younger than me (we're both 15) and there was an elderly lady coming towards us on the same pavement and as she walked past she just looked at the ground and was clutching her bag so hard. It was horrible because it's people like those who commit these crimes that give us kida a bad reputation.

I know it's hard for other people to judge whether we're nice people or if we're going to start shouting abuse at them but I think it is because nobody has respect anymore, so they do what they do, resulting in us being given a bad name.

So I say yes!

[Perdita]

I can't help feeling that there is not the same home life anymore than there used to be, kids join gangs as they replace the families a lot of them have not got. Parents out to work all hours and probably too tired and stressed to spend quality time with their kids and money is tight, so they can't afford holidays as they are too expensive. As mentioned above, locally there is not much for youngsters to do, they get bored and then try to put some exitement into their lives by doing stupid things. This is just my opinion.

[di marco]

Stop blimming health visitors telling parents they aren't allowed to shout/tell off their children would be a start.

Get parents installing discipline into their children again, learning respect for others etc - that would be a huge help in all of this, because there are so few people that seem to be teaching their children values these days and half of it comes from health visitors etc telling you, how you must ask your child not to do something, instead of telling them, as its negative and will taint the child when they are older!!! :angry:

Something needs to be done, but like Di M said, National Service would affect all children (well, males) and its not just with boys that this is happening, plus, those that have got values instilled into them, would also end up having to sign up - tarring everyone with the same brush.

i think ems has got it right, i think one of the main reasons (if not the biggest reason) for kids acting this way is cos parents dont teach their kids respect and you arent allowed to discipline your kids anymore. other things can be blamed like nothing for kids to do etc but that applies to all kids, i never had anything to do but i havent joined a gang and dont carry a knife around with me, same goes for loads of other kids. to me i think thats just an excuse to in a way say its not the kids fault, when in fact its 100% the kids fault, as well as in some cases their parents. i know some kids rebel and their parents have tried their hardest to raise their kids well, but more and more parents these days are either too soft with their kids cos the government etc tell you not to punishment them when theyve been bad, or they just dont care whether their kids are being naughty or not. thats just my opinion but i just think so often other factors are blamed for what kids do just to try and take the blame away from the kids when at 15/16/17+ they are old enough to know its wrong and take full responsiblilty

i also quite like what stars said, but i read somewhere that something like three quarters of people who go to prison commit crimes after being released so i dont know whether trying to scare the kids by showing them what prison is like will help. tbh i think kids who are already teenagers theres not much that can be done to change them, i think making changes in the way younger childre are brought up might help more

sorry for the essay!

[Chloe O'brien]

I can't help feeling that there is not the same home life anymore than there used to be, kids join gangs as they replace the families a lot of them have not got. Parents out to work all hours and probably too tired and stressed to spend quality time with their kids and money is tight, so they can't afford holidays as they are too expensive. As mentioned above, locally there is not much for youngsters to do, they get bored and then try to put some exitement into their lives by doing stupid things. This is just my opinion.

I agree with what you say perdy that it's not the same home life that the older SB members had when they were growing up, but parents working and being stressed is no reason for so many parents throughout the country to let their kids just run riot in the streets and not take responsiblity for them. We have all been teenagers and when I was one and I'm sure it was they same for other members that yes we got drunk on cheap cider, yes we got into fights. But it was with our fits and feet we did the fighting not wepons and Lord help you if your parents caught you because you'd have wished you had joined the Army.

I'm going to go off topic a bit and I'm sorry but I think it is relevant. My nephew has been in care, he is 28 now but was in and out of care/foster homes between the ages of 9 and 16. While in care he was given a £250 clothing grant every three months and £10 week pocket money. I believe that so many parents are not taken the responsiblities they should be for their kids and letting them be taken away for the money.

I can understand Brooke's family feeling that National Serivce should be brought back. I know that not all young people are bad but for the ones that have been in trouble with the police a lot may be short sharp shock of army life may not be a bad idea. The government are always moaning that british jails are over-crowded. Make the criminals do their national service at army barracks, cleaning boots and cooking for free.

[pookie1968uk]

they should make any one who gets into trouble serve some national service as part of their punishment. obviously there is not necesarily a need for those who behave themselves but we need parents to instill good values into their kids and set a good example.

[Perdita]

If it comes to it, the oft-proclaimed "America's Toughest Sheriff" says he has a pair of pink underwear, a bologna sandwich and a spot in a dirty old prison tent for Tom Brady, Eli Manning or, most certainly, Paris Hilton.

Maricopa County – which includes much of metropolitan Phoenix – is host to the Super Bowl, one of the nation's most decadent party weekends where, sometimes, celebrities and even athletes find themselves on the wrong side of the law.

Around here the law means Joe Arpaio, the tough talking, tougher-ruling sheriff who would like nothing better than to make an example out of a high-profile criminal and give them the kind of treatment you might expect in what used to be the wild, wild West.

So for the football player who might get into a bar fight or the starlet who might drive drunk, consider yourself warned.

"(They'll) be treated the same as anyone," Arpaio said Wednesday. "Let the players know that. And Paris better take a limousine. Somebody better tell her that she is in Maricopa County, not Los Angeles County.

"It's a tough county to be in if you do something wrong. Especially the way I run the law enforcement."

Arpaio has been sheriff here since 1992 and runs his jail like no one else, his most famous policies generating worldwide attention. They include:


Pink underwear: When he noticed that inmates kept stealing jail-issued underwear, he dyed them all pink in an effort to humiliate male prisoners and cut down on thefts. It worked and he even sells a line of pink underwear to raise money for the sheriff's office.

Bologna sandwich: Rather than serve inmates three square meals a day, Arpaio decided to save money and return to the days when the term "prison food" meant something.

"We don't give them breakfast anymore or lunch, we give them brunch," he said. "They get a bologna sandwich."


Inmates have said it is beyond bad. Arpaio noted that no one has starved to death.


Tent city: Arpaio often says he wants the most populated jail in America. He came up with a solution to overcrowding when he got a hold of some old military tents and had them erected in the parking lot outside one of the county jails.

Thousands of inmates don't stay in traditional cells. Instead, they sleep on cots under the tents (the complex is surrounded by fences) whether the temperature drops near freezing or, as is often the case in the desert, climbs into triple digits.

"We have almost 2,000 people in hot, Korean War tents."

It's enough to make a felon dream of the hole, even before Arpaio pipes in classical or patriotic music. He even put up a giant pink "Vacancy" sign outside Tent City, which now gives tours to curiosity seekers from around the globe.

"I've got room," he noted of the players and party goers. "I'll put them in my celebrity tent."

How is that not a reality show?


Chain gang: In 1995, Arpaio brought back the male chain gang for prisoners and a year later created what he calls, "the only female chain gang in the history of the United States, if not the world."

Wednesday morning, both "Sheriff's DUI Chain Gangs" were picking road side garbage along Glendale Ave. in the shadow of University of Phoenix Stadium, which will host Super Bowl XLII. They were wearing old school black and white striped prison garb and, presumably, pink underwear.

Beside the men's chain gang was a sign reading: "Bowl Fans: Drive and Drink and You'll wear Pink." By the women's gang: "Ladies: Horizontal stripes will make you look fat! So do not drink and drive."

"We want to make the influx of people know that if you come into this county and get arrested and convicted of driving under the influence you are going to the tents and out on the chain gang."

Paris picking trash? Tom eating a bologna brunch?

"We're ready for them," he promised.

Arpaio is 73, a former DEA agent and someone who's dealt with plenty of criticism and even a recall effort for his treatment of inmates and, especially, illegal immigrants. He's controversial, but also popular, elected five times.

"I guess they like their sheriff," he said.

If nothing else, the man is colorful, which makes him perfect to try to contain the sprawling excess of a Super Bowl which features 'round the clock partying, an influx of prostitutes and huge crowds ranging from blue-collar football fans to Hollywood glitz.

While it seems unlikely Brady or Manning will suddenly step out of line, the history of football players breaking the law is fairly lengthy. If during Super Bowl week they tend to head out on the town for some fun and if they get busted this time, there'll be no quick bail or leniency.

What passes for "celebrity justice" here was when Arpaio didn't put a locked up Mike Tyson in the tents last month due to safety concerns. Not Tyson's safety, mind you, the other guys'.

"He has two dangerous weapons: his fists. And also his teeth because he did chew somebody's ear off when boxing a couple of years ago."

As for Hilton, who is in town to host and attend a number of big parties, you get a sense Arpaio wouldn't mind having her slip up.

Last year when overcrowding forced her early release from a Los Angeles County jail on a DUI conviction, he generated headlines by asking she get sent to Tent City.

"They put her on home arrest," he growled. "That would never happen with me. She'll serve every minute. She's in town and if she gets arrested in this county, she'll go to the hot tents if convicted."

She'd probably be fine with the pink underwear, though.

This is what I would like to see more of rather than spoilt inmates watching tv and playing table tennis while their victims lie in a grave

[Kirsty :]]

I would have said I agreed with National service.. but after reading through all your posts I dunno.. I think it would be unfair on the good kids out there.

Remember Bad Lad's Army?... they should jsut send them all there.. so they'll get a taster of Army life and see how tough it really can be!

Also I think there should be like.. parenting classes. These days parents want to be their childs friends, but sometimes you jsut cannot do that, you need to be authoritive but then when you do the usual response is "you can get done for that" "I'll phone Childline".. so you can't really win either way I suppose :/

[Pinkbanana]

;585214']I would have said I agreed with National service.. but after reading through all your posts I dunno.. I think it would be unfair on the good kids out there.


I think that some sort of boot camp should be for young adults instead of going to a young offenders institute...

I always remember reading about the killers of James Bulger, and the 8 years they spent in a a young offenders institute...I can't really see how they were punished...they spent 8 years in a better environment than they were living in prior to it, and got a first class education, and probably better cared for than outside in the real world. Where's the justice in that???

I honestly think some of these youths out there need a tough love approach and so do their parents! The problem is many of these young people feel untouchable or the punishment isn't a real deterrent. For example many see ASBOs as badges...

I dont know what the answer is, but I think National Service for ALL young people isnt the answer...sadly there isnt a 'one size fits all' answer to Yob Britain.

[Chloe O'brien]

James Bulger killers are now living the life or Rielly with new identities in Austrailia where is the justice. Our jails are over-crowded with repeat offenders being sent back to jail so that they can have three cooked meals a day, Sky+ telly and all the drugs they want. There should be more tuffer community service duties depending on if it's a first offence or which crime. Send them out to scrape chewing gum of pavements, wash bus shelters or graffiti of walls. For crimes such as murder jail them for life with the only chance of leaving prison is in a wooden box.

[Abigail]

My brother in law worked in ITC (infantry training camp) at Catterick Garrisson for two years training new recruits. The attitude and back chat he got from the teenagers was appalling. Every three months he got a new intake of 15 men. Less than half of them progressed onto the second part of the course. Some were medically discharged but a lot of them were dishonourably discharged due to bullying, bad attitude and repetedly not doing as asked. One of the recruits was RMP'd (military police) because he was bullying and the victim tried to kill himself. The case went to court marshall and he got time in a military prison and a dishonourable discharge.

Whilst I think National Service is a good idea, it will put a huge strain on the armed services sorting these youths out. There should be an option: national service, further education or a job (unless there are mitigating circumstances which would rule these out) once the child leaves full time education.

Of course we might not need national service or larger prisons if parents disciplined their children properly and stopped letting them get away with blue murder.

[Chloe O'brien]

It's true most of the yobs who comit crimes know the police can't touch them because they are underage. How do they know this because their parents are telling them and letting them wonder the streets causing all kinds of trouble with a care for anyone else.