View Full Version : Den - What made him the way he was?
squarelady
15-06-2005, 22:26
This is inspired by a post where someone said Den didn't have a heart. I disagree I think he did but he only reserved his love for a select few. The thing I don't understand is why he acted the way he did. He tried his best not to hurt Sharon and he tried to protect her from everything bad in the world. He showed sympathy to Angie and there were times where he said he'd stand by her (like when she lied about having cancer), he said he'd be there and support her no matter what. He'd also admitted to Chrissie that he loved her. There was something special about him in Spain. She really fell for him, said that he could charm her and he made her feel beautiful.
So exactly why did he turn into the person he did? It seems like it's just when he's in Walford? What made Den so bad?
littlemo
15-06-2005, 22:53
Wow that's some question isn't it?! I think I may have caused this thread to start by saying Den didn't have a heart, but I was a bit upset and I think I may have judged too quickly.
I do agree that he loved Sharon, not as much as he loved himself but he did. I don't know what made Den what he was. Whether something happened to him as a child that made him choose the path he did. Although his character in the 80's and his character in the 00's changed dramatically, so maybe there's something in Spain to explain it. The old Den would never have treated his family with the contempt that he did Dennis. Family were always important to him, his children mean't the world. There's nothing he wouldn't do to protect them. This is the way his character once was.
In some small way I do think Den had feelings for Dennis, but he never showed them and I don't know why. But now and again we saw some emotion in Den's face, like when he found out about Dennis's abuse, or when he realised what he'd done to Dennis after the whole incident in the pub. He should have made an effort with his son, but now it's too late, and Dennis will probably never really know how his dad felt about him. Unless there's a surprise in his will.
I actually had an idea about the will. Wouldn't it be interesting if Den had actually left a quarter of his money to Dennis. I think it would be good. If they said he made his will 2 months ago, and he had still left them all with something. At least they'd realise that their dad wasn't all bad. And ease Sharon and Dennis of the guilt they may be feeling.
squarelady
15-06-2005, 23:07
Yer, it was your comment but I'm glad you brought it up! :D
The thing is, after what happened in the pub I'm not sure whether that was him making an effort or being manipulative. It was really hard to tell with Den. I think Sharon is the only one he loved more than himself. I don't know whether something happened in Spain or whether it was the shock of Walford that made him the way he was because he was a totally different man with Chrissie in Spain.
Hi, I put this comment on NHO aswell :)
Den did have a heart but it was only for him and Sharon. Sharon he loved but the choices he made were selfish and for himself. It was more about what he could benefit rather than thinking of her. I won't dispute that he loves her but it was an obsessive unhealthy love. I don't think he loved Chrissie or Angie. He cared about them both, but it wasn't love whether he came out with that line or not. Sharon is the only person who has had an effect on him to such a degree. The rest were companionship and making do.
I think it was his obsession with Sharon that made him the way he was. It was clear that he would go to any desperate measure just to keep her with him. This is a women of 34, not a 16 year old girl. Him being absent from her life for 14 years meant that he never got to see her grow up into a mature lady and when he returned all he saw was the child he left behind. This is why he was so content on creating this perfect fairy tale consisting of him and his ‘princess’ by wrapping her up in cotton wool. Dennis however, was a threat to that. Den could never grasp the fact that Sharon loved Dennis more than her dad. His feelings towards their relationship wasn't just down to the fact that it was his children, but because he was no longer the no1 man in Sharon’s eyes.
A lot of the things that Den did was cruel, malicious and heartless. When he used his sons molestation as a weapon to break them up, it was cold and vindictive. When he realised that he touched on a raw nerve, he should have stopped. No body under any circumstances should use their son’s childhood sexual abuse to make a point and neither should they use their daughter infertility against them. When Den went to apologise to Dennis, that wasn't genuine at all but just pure manipulation. He wanted to get Dennis back on his side so he made some speech about how he wanted a relationship. It was never about that -he just used that to get his princess back. I don’t think Den gave a toss about him. It was more about keeping up the pretences for the girls and saw him as a lost cause. He was clearly threatened by this man and so was Dennis. There was envy from both parts because both held the key to Sharon’s heart, only it was Dennis who won out in the end and that’s something he can't bear to come to terms with.
There was initial rivalry between them from the second they met I really do think that in Den's eyes, Dennis was a person who was unnecessary to his family and perceived him as someone who should be eradicated. He put up with him because he just so happened to be his son. I have once seen a scene between them where their so-called bonding wasn't under any sort of manipulation.
callummc
16-06-2005, 09:32
Den was just a jack the lad,only loyal to a few old friends,he had loved angie a long time before and loved sharon he brought her up from a baby,it proves one thing for den blood is not thicker than water,dennis was a grown man and they met in difficult circumstances,den had enough problems and didn't want his son who he knew is a murderer with the child he' raised as his own,den also loved jan and cared deeply for michelle and vicki,i'm not sure about chrissy i think maybe he cared about her in spain but back in walford he had an image to live up to,and i think in dennis he saw himself and didn't want his daughter shacked up with his,it would take away some of his streer cred if he couldn't sort out his own family
Alisha, I agree with you - many of Den's actions were selfish because they were focussed towards him getting the Vic and living their with Sharon. He wanted to be the most important person in the world to Sharon so felt that Dennis was a huge threat to that! He was willing to go to any lengths and did not care who he hurt to make sure he achieved his dream. When Sharon is in the picture, everyone else, such as Vicki, Dennis and Chrissie, seems to pale into insignificance to Den, so he ends up hurting them.
I dont think there's any doubt that Den loved Sharon, but the he treated her more like a posession than a person. I think he was almost obessed with her. If you read into it Den only loved ther person he thought Sharon was, and IMO I dont think he really knew her all that well.
Another intresting thing is that Chrissie and Dens realtionship was not as intense as Den and Angies was.
I do think Den had an heart but it wasn't a normal one. Obviously he had one though, he might have looked a bit squidgy/thin in some places but surely the blood was still getting pumped round otherwise he would have died long before the doggy doorstop :p
squarelady
16-06-2005, 13:22
He did tell Chrissie that he couldn't live without her which is why he turned into a wreck when she left. Then as soon as she's back he starts cheating again, granted it was only to keep Sharon but still. 'I love you Chrissie but I've just got to sleep with Zoe so she can keep my son and daughter apart' What twisted logic is that?
The man was pure evil, they ruined a legend.
brooksyrules
16-06-2005, 14:54
I think that despite everything he did have a heart 4 caring for Sharon and i think he loved Angie deep down but not sure. He did some deals that would go wrong
Den did love Angie once he must have done otherwise he wouldn't have put up with her for as long as he did and her likewise.
squarelady
16-06-2005, 15:39
Den just had a very twisted impression of what love was.
squarelady
16-06-2005, 15:59
A bit like Dennis?
No, I think Dennis knows what love is now. I just think Dennis tried to make him believe he was confused.
I mean Dennis not being able to love Sharon for what she is - a sister but being able to love her for a girlfriend.
squarelady
16-06-2005, 16:03
I mean Dennis not being able to love Sharon for what she is - a sister but being able to love her for a girlfriend.
I think that's just because Dennis never saw her as a sister. He always saw her as a girlfriend. He fancied her, he didn't have sibling love for her.
I think that's just because Dennis never saw her as a sister. He always saw her as a girlfriend. He fancied her, he didn't have sibling love for her.
If Sharon wasn't adopted do you still think we would have Shannis?
squarelady
16-06-2005, 16:10
If Sharon wasn't adopted do you still think we would have Shannis?
No. I don't think Dennis had a problem with love at all. He'd never been loved before yes, and he didn't know what love really was. But he was never confused between attraction and affection. I think Den used the fact that it seemed like he was to manipulate him into breaking up with her. I don't think it's sick what they did. They aren't blood related, they love each other and I don't see a problem. I think Dennis wouldn't have even attempted to make a move if Sharon was his true sister.
No. I don't think Dennis had a problem with love at all. He'd never been loved before yes, and he didn't know what love really was. But he was never confused between attraction and affection. I think Den used the fact that it seemed like he was to manipulate him into breaking up with her. I don't think it's sick what they did. They aren't blood related, they love each other and I don't see a problem. I think Dennis wouldn't have even attempted to make a move if Sharon was his true sister.
Hypothetically they're brother and sister but the word incest really is about blood related people sleeping together so therefore their relationship isn't incestuous and I suppose it makes it easy with the fact they didn't grow up together.
ElectricToes
16-06-2005, 16:12
No. Dennis knew Sharon was adopted so he never saw her as a sister, he was never confused like Den said he was, he knew the difference between loving someone and being in love with someone. He never saw Sharon as his sister so he allowed himself to fall for her, he wouldn't have even thought about her in that way if he'd thought of her as his sister.
No. Dennis knew Sharon was adopted so he never saw her as a sister, he was never confused like Den said he was, he knew the difference between loving someone and being in love with someone. He never saw Sharon as his sister so he allowed himself to fall for her, he wouldn't have even thought about her in that way if he'd thought of her as his sister.
You’re right and they were not raised together either. That bears a lot of significance. They were raised in separate households by separate people and met as two matured non-related adults who held no recollection of one another until they met.
I don't paint Dennis in the same way as Den. Dennis' vulnerability was portrayed through his love for Sharon. What he did was never about hurting others but because he genuinely fell in love. I can understand Den not liking the idea but the lengths he went to were the lowest of low and this was reinforced by his obsessive love over Sharon.
Sharon is Dennis's sister - fact but their relationship is okay and legal because she's adopted and Den isn't even around anymore.
ElectricToes
16-06-2005, 16:27
But she's not his sister, she's his adoptive half sister and that doesn't really count for much, because they never grew up together and they've never been brother and sister, they never wanted to be brother and sister.
But she's not his sister, she's his adoptive half sister and that doesn't really count for much, because they never grew up together and they've never been brother and sister, they never wanted to be brother and sister.
I know, but they still are, it's so complicated but there's nothing wrong with Shannis from a legal point of view.
ElectricToes
16-06-2005, 16:28
If they'd have grown up together then, yeah, you could say she he was his sister. Vicki's known Sharon all her life so Vicki and Sharon are sisters, but if someone's adopted by your father and you don't meet them until they're in their mid thirties I don't think you could really say they were your sibling...
ElectricToes
16-06-2005, 16:43
Ooo I've brought you round to my way of thinking...
27 hours 17 minutes....
some big essay long replies here...
IMHO i reckon that den has lived his liufe, seen how people can be betrayed... seen how crule the world is... and his trust is not something he dishes out like 1p chews... he only allows a select few to get close to him as he doesnt want to be hurt... or to be made a fool off... his pride is too big for that
bondboffin
I think Den's relationship with Sharon was bordering on incestuous on his part but not Sharon's he was far too obsessed with her for it to be a normal father/daughter relationship.
ElectricToes
16-06-2005, 17:02
Dennis said to Den once, 'you're jealous, you're not related to her either, you wanna know who the sick, twisted one is, I'm lookin' at him'
squarelady
16-06-2005, 17:04
I think Den's relationship was bordering on incestuous on his part but not Sharon's he was far too obsessed with her for it to be a normal father/daughter relationship.
I sort of agree with that :D
i doubt nethink will of happened... i think she was a possesion rather than a relative... only he could have his possesion, and anyone who damaged it would pay the price!
i hate referring to sharon as a possesion cus she is luvly
bondboffin
There was something Den said shortly before he died to Zoe about Sharon, I can't remember what it was though but it sort of gave us an incline that Den was obsessed with her.
"theres not a single one of you that i give a toss about"
sharon emerges from darkness
"sharon"
bondboffin
probably not it but wanted to post it cus its a great moment
lossing his \princess was worse than dying
bondboffin
littlemo
16-06-2005, 21:40
lossing his \princess was worse than dying
bondboffin
Yes I definetely agree with that. We knew his life was over when Sharon walked out on him, his whole world fell apart. Den never attacked women, he always made a big thing about violence, he used his mind to control people. But on the night he was killed, he really laid into Chrissie, he had lost control of the situation, his temper raged on the psychotic. He always managed to keep his cool around people, but he lost that the night he lost Sharon. I don't know if Den would have been able to live a 'normal' life without Sharon in it.
i totally agree with what everyone has said here :)
He did have a heart and Dot also knew that - he cared about her, there were a select few like you say, aswell as the obvious ones, Ian was looked after because of Pete, Pauline to a certain extent, because of Michelle and Vicki and their history, and probably Pat also.
He cared for Lisa a great deal too.
He cared for Lisa a great deal too.
he's a sucker for an innocent women:
he sticked by angie when she had "six months to live"
he cared for sharon... an adopted child etc
bondboffin
then again he has treated women disgustlingky
angie,sharon, jan, kate, sam, zoe, vicky, pauline, the list goes on and on
bondboffin
squarelady
17-06-2005, 21:15
then again he has treated women disgustlingky
angie,sharon, jan, kate, sam, zoe, vicky, pauline, the list goes on and on
bondboffin
Maybe that's because, as Chrissie said because he was lacking something that he couldn't find when Sharon wasn't around.
littlemo
17-06-2005, 21:28
Maybe that's because, as Chrissie said because he was lacking something that he couldn't find when Sharon wasn't around.
Is that what Chrissie said last night to Zoe? Sharon and Den is a really strange set up. I can't imagine what it would be like to be seperated from my father for 14 years, and how he would feel if he were split from me. I should think it would probably effect our relationships we have with other people. If you don't have the love and security from your family, it's quite difficult to build that with somebody else. A father and daughter relationship is special. But I think the Sharon and Den situation was bordering on weird.
I don't think Sharon realised what she had with her father was different from the relationships other people have with their dads, because that's all she had known all her life. I can understand Chrissie's jealously.
squarelady
17-06-2005, 21:29
Yer, she said that it was unhealthy and it was. It wasn't father daughter love, he was obsessed!
I agree Den was a bit obsessed with her...kind of scary really...oh well its a good job hes dead now isnt it? sharon doesnt need him anyway i think she will be much better without him. she's got dennis anyway :wub:
littlemo
17-06-2005, 22:08
I agree Den was a bit obsessed with her...kind of scary really...oh well its a good job hes dead now isnt it? sharon doesnt need him anyway i think she will be much better without him. she's got dennis anyway :wub:
Quite right Dennis is there for Sharon now, she is a lucky woman!
Sharon doesn't need Den 'her father', I don't know why she convinced herself she does. He was once a good dad to her, but not somebody she could look up to. All Den did was mess with her head, he just wasn't normal (towards the end).
Although I still have that vision of when Sharon saw Den at the canal, when he came back. Sharon thought he had gone again and she saw him across the water, she had this big grin on her face, and then Den started smiling too, and then they ran towards each other, and they hugged. I did find that moment quite emotional. It was obsessive but I do think there were genuine feelings there on both sides.
squarelady
18-06-2005, 00:05
I know it's strange but no matter what he did I miss Den. I think he was a really important part of that family unit and I'm slightly worried that, with Sharon and Dennis back with Den not there it just won't be the same.
I know it's strange but no matter what he did I miss Den. I think he was a really important part of that family unit and I'm slightly worried that, with Sharon and Dennis back with Den not there it just won't be the same.
he'd have only tried to and suceeded in splitting them up with his phycological warfare and silly little games and lies.
bondboffin
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